Episode 24
Navigating the Church Ages: Insights from TS Wright Part 5
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The episode presents a comprehensive analysis of the evolution of the Church, particularly during the pivotal transition from the third to the fourth church age, as articulated by TS Wright. The discussion begins with an exploration of the third age, characterized by the intertwining of ecclesiastical power and imperial authority, a period marked by significant theological and political upheaval. The emergence of Constantine as a pivotal figure in the establishment of Christianity as a state religion is highlighted, as his actions catalyzed a transformation in the Church's influence over societal structures. This age is scrutinized for its reliance on fear and intimidation, which shaped the practices and beliefs of early Christians.
Transitioning to the fourth age, the conversation delves into the ramifications of this newfound power, including the establishment of the New Testament canon and the emergence of monasticism, as exemplified by figures such as St. Anthony of Egypt. The hosts engage in a thoughtful dialogue about the theological implications of these developments, particularly concerning the Church's efforts to define orthodoxy amidst rising heretical movements. The narrative also touches on the socio-political challenges that arose during this time, including the schisms that divided the Church and the ensuing conflicts that shaped its identity.
Ultimately, this episode serves not only as a historical overview but also as an exhortation for listeners to reflect on their own faith journeys within the context of this rich ecclesiastical heritage. By understanding the complexities of the Church's past, individuals are encouraged to embrace their roles in advancing the Gospel message today, fostering a spirit of unity and purpose as they navigate the complexities of modern Christian life.
Transcript
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Speaker B:Welcome to the Kingdom Crossroads Podcast with Pastor Bob Thibodeau.
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Speaker A:Hello everyone everywhere.
Speaker A:Pastor Robert Thibodeau here.
Speaker A:Welcome to the Kingdom Crossroads podcast today.
Speaker A:We're so blessed that you're joining us.
Speaker A:Last time we had Scott Wright on, we were studying about the third church age.
Speaker A:Now I'm gonna have Scott give a brief summary of what we discussed.
Speaker A:But basically this is the age, you know, where the Pope and the Catholic Church ruled by fear, intimidation and brute force.
Speaker A:And basically Rome obtained its power and wealth through the God of force, if you want to get technical, which is Satan.
Speaker A:But to talk more about this and to discuss the fourth age of the church, Scott writes back with us today.
Speaker A:Scott's been teaching us about all the different ages of the church and the significant things that the Bible and history has to say about them.
Speaker A:And he does this by helping us to understand that God's Word readily gives us in order to draw us closer to him.
Speaker A:And he's also published a journal called God Centered Concept Journal Making God's Word My Ways.
Speaker A:Scott has a goal of launching this series on a large scale, reaching churches and organizations with this curriculum that will change their churches from simple institutions into a movement.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:He's also a podcaster.
Speaker A:There's a truly great podcast called the God Centered Concept as well.
Speaker A:And you need to listen and subscribe to this podcast because it truly is amazing.
Speaker A:But more than that, he's also a huge student of end time scenarios dealing with the Book of the Revelation, the End of Days and the seven ages of the church.
Speaker A:Now I've asked him to come back on the program today as we continue a series of interviews discussing the church ages.
Speaker A:Help me welcome back to the program Scott Rice.
Speaker A:Scott, thanks for coming back on as we continue this great discussion of all the different church ages.
Speaker D:Well, Bob, thanks for having me on the show again and glad to be back.
Speaker D:We obviously we've been working through this different time period of the third age of the church and now we're going to be shifting into the fourth age of the church.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:And eventually we're going to work our way through all seven ages of the church.
Speaker D:And then as I, I sent you the other day, I've got some other things that we'll, we'll dive into once we're done with the seven ages of the church.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:This is just laying the foundation.
Speaker A:Praise God.
Speaker A:So share with us a little bit about the third age of the church just to tie together some things as we embark on a study of the fourth age of the church today.
Speaker D:Well, the, the thing we have to do is, is we have to look back and the first guy I like to look at in that third age of the church and he lived actually in the second age of the church and, and the third day church.
Speaker D:The guy was over a hundred years old when he died.
Speaker D:He lived to be 105 and his name is Anthony of Egypt, known as Anthony the Great.
Speaker D:St. Anthony the Great.
Speaker D:He was really the start of the monastic movement and the Desert Fathers and he's known as the father of all monks.
Speaker D:The reason what he did was so important even to the fourth age of the church is that he is the one that's going to establish how monks live and that is going to infiltrate its way into the church almost basically in how priests live and even nuns and, and all the, the clergy that's going to be part of the Western, the Western Roman Church.
Speaker D:So we have to, we have to go back to him to understand that.
Speaker D:And so not, not to speak about him would just, would be absolutely ignoring one of the most important acts.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:X of church, home and his simplistic life, his, the way he lived, the way that he believed and to teach others to believe and to how they should walk will infiltrate its way all the way through the foundations of the church.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:And with the third church age, was I right with saying, you know, where.
Speaker A:Well, let's, let me just ask it like this.
Speaker A:Where did the power of the Church, Catholic Church come from.
Speaker D:So what happened was, is eventually when Constantine sees the vision and they, and they win the battle in three.
Speaker D:And then the Edict of Milan is released by Constantine in 3:17.
Speaker D:That's kind of a, a starting point of shifting from the second to the third age of the Church.
Speaker D:But it will become official.
Speaker D:The real, the real trigger event is going to happen in 337 with the baptism of Constantine.
Speaker D:Because what this is going to signify right before he dies is that now we have an emperor, and you said it in the last episode, who is kind of hailed as a God, actually bowing before the real God.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:And saying that he had to be baptized.
Speaker D:That is like that signature event that flips the ages of the Church.
Speaker D:And now what we have is we have the Roman, the power of the Roman Empire that is now promoting Christianity.
Speaker D:Now they'll, there'll still be some issues and they'll still be some things with persecution and all that that still goes on.
Speaker D:That's never going to totally end.
Speaker D:But now it's becoming a thing to be a Christian versus before it was looked down upon and the people, I mean you had to have a solid belief in Christ to be able to, to be able to continue that way.
Speaker D:The, what they called the way it.
Speaker D:One point and now it's called Christianity.
Speaker D:To really, to really walk in that you had to have a solid faith because you were going to be tested in every aspect, including your life.
Speaker D:I mean it was a life and death struggle for a lot of Christians during that time of the second age of the Church.
Speaker D:But this shifting takes a lot of that away and the persecution starts to die off.
Speaker D:And now what we have is we have an age of the Church that is now trying to settle, and a lot of people call it the political age of the Church is trying to settle on its theology.
Speaker D:And we get the accepted writings of the New Testament which, the canonization of Scripture, which is huge, that comes out of this age of the Church, but also other theological point of views and trying to figure out what exactly is heresy and what exactly is sacred and what needs to be taught and what needs to be ridded, you know, what we need to rid ourselves of at that time or the Church needs to rid itself of to really follow the teachings of Christ.
Speaker D:So coming up with the 27 sacred writings helps to do that and helps to establish a theological base with, with which the Church will move forward with into the fourth age.
Speaker A:Well, let me ask you this.
Speaker A:You know, is there more than 27 writings that were in the Catholic Bible.
Speaker D:Okay, so what you're probably referring to is the apocrypha.
Speaker D:All right?
Speaker D:And that is in the Old Testament.
Speaker D:And really that argument is between the church and Jewish scholars.
Speaker D:Okay, okay.
Speaker D:So the New Testament itself, no, the New Testament was settled upon.
Speaker D:And so the Catholic Church, as well as what will eventually become the Protestant movement, they will, they will adhere to the same New Testament writings.
Speaker D:It'll be the Old Testament.
Speaker A:Okay, well, how did the, the spread of Catholicism help or hinder the influence of the Church in this time period?
Speaker D:Well, obviously, and here's the way to think of this, and I'm glad you bring this up, is that in the, for some reason in this new day and age, we have gotten to a point where we think that this was just the age of the Catholic Church.
Speaker D:This was the age of the Church because our beliefs that we have now came from this age.
Speaker D: m the Western Roman church in: Speaker D:That, that, because so we have to, we have to think of the church as in those first four ages.
Speaker D:Up until the very end of that fourth age.
Speaker D:We, we have to think of that as one because so much of our belief system comes from this age.
Speaker D:So there are certain things that we don't, that Protestants don't adhere to, that they did, that the Catholic faith continue to embrace.
Speaker D:But the basis of Christ Christian belief still remains the same and it's the entity of Jesus Christ and who he is, that is the, that is the real foundation of both Protestant and Catholicism.
Speaker D:That is still the central core belief is, is who Christ is.
Speaker A:So you share that.
Speaker A:You know, this church age, the fourth church age is probably the most significant church age out of all of them.
Speaker A:So why is that?
Speaker A:What, what makes this one more important than the first three and the last three?
Speaker D:Okay, so saying that it's more important may not be the way I would exactly say it, but it is the foundational culminating age of the church.
Speaker D:And here's why I say that.
Speaker D:And so, and it'll kind of actually lend to what you just said, it'll actually promote that idea in some ways, because if you go through the first three ages of the church is kind of a build up that puts the, the fourth age of the church as the church in power.
Speaker D:Think of this that church is going to be the church that's in power.
Speaker D:Even if you start with the very first verse of this age of the Church, which is verse 18 of Revelation, chapter 2, these are the words of the Son of.
Speaker D:Of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like polished bronze.
Speaker D:What happens at the very beginning of the writings of each ages of these churches, Jesus Christ is declared in a different way in each one.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:But the way that he's declared really is a highlight of what that age of the Church is.
Speaker D:I mean, think about it.
Speaker D:If you describe somebody as the Son of God, that's a powerful statement.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:And that's saying that he's it.
Speaker D:I mean, this is it.
Speaker D:This is the guy.
Speaker D:And then if you also look at how they say this, Whose eyes are like blazing fire.
Speaker D:Does that sound timid to you?
Speaker D:Not Polish bronze.
Speaker D:Does that sound timid to you?
Speaker D:That sounds foundational.
Speaker D:Foundational to me.
Speaker D:That sounds powerful, which is exactly what this age of the Church was.
Speaker D:It was the controlling power in Europe, and governments and the Church were all intertwined, solidifying that power.
Speaker D:Now, that is not to say the fourth age of the Church was some straight line of total dominance all the time.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:If you go and look at the.
Speaker D:And I have this here, and this was something I wanted to talk about.
Speaker D:If you want to go and look at the map of Europe over that thousand years, the geopolitical boundaries change, like you and I change our socks.
Speaker D:I mean, there was.
Speaker D:And not only that, but the spiritual beliefs of those different areas changed almost as much at times because that's such a large area of land.
Speaker D:And there was a lot of turmoil between Christians and other Christians deciding on what to believe, who the local authorities should be.
Speaker D:Should be.
Speaker D:Should it be the clergy in Rome deciding that, or should it be the local governors and people who were in charge, whether it was kings in those countries or whatever, deciding who those clergy people were that were teaching this stuff.
Speaker D:And there's a lot of haggling in that that goes on throughout this age of the Church.
Speaker D:What also happens here, and I think this is very important, is that there is a lot of dissension and a lot of fighting and a lot of geopolitical shifting between Muslims and Christians during this time.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:It goes on a lot.
Speaker D:But I'm going to say this, and I think this is something to think about.
Speaker D:You know, we.
Speaker D:We talk about Jerusalem because it is such a centerpiece of the world, and it's a centerpiece of the Bible.
Speaker D:And we talked about it in the last stage of the church that in 363, they actually tried to.
Speaker D:That Roman emperor tried to rebuild.
Speaker D:In the day before they were going to start, there was a.
Speaker D:There was earthquakes accompanied by balls of lightning.
Speaker D:And that completely not only disrupted, but destroyed a lot of the, a lot of the things that they needed to rebuild it.
Speaker D:And then finally that idea was just abandoned, but also during this fourth age of the church.
Speaker D:And I believe God is acting in a way to promote his glory here.
Speaker D:And a lot of people aren't going to see it this way until they really step back and see it in the big picture.
Speaker D:And these people, the people during this time couldn't have seen this.
Speaker D:There's just no way.
Speaker D:But in between 636 and 638, the Byzantine Jerusalem controlled by the Byzantine Byzantines is now conquered by Arab armies and shifts from Christian to Islam.
Speaker D:God was saying that this is not the time.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:And you're trying to do this.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:You're trying to take this.
Speaker D:And then eventually the temple could be rebuilt.
Speaker D:So God just puts a, he just puts his foot down, says no.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:And when he also said that, that.
Speaker A:It remained that way until the time of the Gentiles was fulfilled.
Speaker D:Exactly.
Speaker D:And it, and, and even now it hadn't been totally fulfilled.
Speaker E:So.
Speaker D:This puts a stop to that, all these attempts and all these different things that, that Christians are now in power there.
Speaker D:And of course, you know, Christians would rather work with, with people of Jewish faith than they would have Islam at that time.
Speaker D:Well, guess what?
Speaker D:Now Islam has control of Jerusalem and there is no biblical controlling entity, whether it's Jewish or Christian, controlling that area anymore.
Speaker D:So the chances of the temple being rebuilt are none at that time.
Speaker D:Right at that time.
Speaker D:And I believe God acted in that way and he, you know, he'll do that, even allow the enemies to come in to what he's trying to promote, to get things the way he wants it.
Speaker D:And that's what happens.
Speaker D:And I believe that that is a part of this history right here that we have to step back and see it that way.
Speaker D:I'm not saying that was fun for those people.
Speaker D:I'm just saying it is what it is.
Speaker D:God's glory outranks our life, and we need to remember that.
Speaker A:And a lot of people, a lot of people ask something like, you know, it might stay a statement like, well, you know, if.
Speaker A:If God takes care of his people, why did he allow, you know, all these thousands of people to die, millions of people over the centuries?
Speaker A:Why did he die just because he didn't want the temple rebuilt at that time.
Speaker A:Something like that.
Speaker A:And you know, that's short.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, that's the short view of looking at things.
Speaker A:Because if you actually think about.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, it's tragic that, you know, a million people, 6 million Jews died during the Holocaust.
Speaker A:Why didn't God do something to protect his people?
Speaker A:But the thing is, if they're still believers, they didn't really die, you know, I mean, yeah, the body died.
Speaker A:It was tragic, you know, the torture and all that stuff that would take place.
Speaker A:But, you know, his people are still his people.
Speaker A:It's just they're transitioning from earth to heaven.
Speaker A:And you know, for believers, we have that hope because, you know, scripture says Jesus tasted death for every person he did.
Speaker A:Well, that means you don't have to.
Speaker A:When you.
Speaker D:We don't have to taste the second death.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker A:When you die, that's just the end of this earthly existence.
Speaker A:And you transition immediately, you know, absent with the body, present with the Lord, you know, and, you know, so, yeah, the, you know, by God putting the, the Muslims in charge of Jerusalem, making sure that there wouldn't be a forced rebuilding of the Third Temple until it was time.
Speaker A:Yeah, lots and lots of people died, you know, trying to make it happen on their own.
Speaker A:But you know, the thing is there's still believers and they're still God's people.
Speaker A:He just transitioned them out of that environment and into His.
Speaker D:But exactly.
Speaker D:And think about us.
Speaker D:Yeah, no problem.
Speaker D:Christians can be in Christ, but not necessarily hearing his voice and trying to act in their own way.
Speaker D:And sometimes God has to correct that.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker D:And he'll do whatever he has to do to correct it.
Speaker D:Well, I don't see this as being any different.
Speaker D:And the problem is people in our natural sense, in and out again and what we do.
Speaker D:But the truth is everything here is set up by God and for God and for his glory.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:And he will correct whatever needs to be corrected to make it about his glory.
Speaker E:Yep.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:Ultimately, our job here on earth is to glorify his name.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker D:That is our ultimate purpose above all things, else things, all the other details, all these other pieces when we're not glorifying God.
Speaker D:And I can think about times in my own life when I have not God has corrected me, and rightfully so.
Speaker D:And not take such a view of things is to be, as you said, short sighted and not seeing it the way God wants us to see it.
Speaker D:We have to see it through his glorif.
Speaker D:Glorification.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:God gets the glory.
Speaker D:And I believe that in this fourth age of the church, God works through this age in many different ways to eventually bring an end result that will bring him glory.
Speaker D:There's a lot of things that come out of this age that does not bring him glory.
Speaker D:And we're going to talk about those here in a minute.
Speaker D:Yeah, and it's pretty ugly at times.
Speaker D:I mean it just flat out is ugly.
Speaker D:And to not, and to, and to not see it that way is just seeing it in a.
Speaker D:Some illusion, I guess is the best word I want to use here.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:But the bottom line is, is that the end result of all this will be to God's glory.
Speaker D:Everything is about God's glory.
Speaker D:And when we don't see life that way, we run into short, the short sightedness that you just talked about.
Speaker D:But we also run into the fact that it's, it goes back to episode one of my podcast.
Speaker D:Who's the owner?
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:Who are you giving the authority over to?
Speaker D:God is the final authority.
Speaker D:Period.
Speaker D:There is no other answer, guys there, if you're listening to this, there is no other answer.
Speaker D:Whether we're studying the ages of the church or the end times, or we're studying discipleship, or we're just teaching a non believer what our faith is all about in leading them to salvation at the end of this, it's all about the glorification of God.
Speaker D:Even Jesus, the son of God, who is was God glorified his Father in heaven.
Speaker D:It was all to his glory.
Speaker D:The garden of Gethsemane, his prayer.
Speaker D:He did not.
Speaker D:He wanted the cup taken away, but he said, no, not my will, but thy will be done.
Speaker D:God's will.
Speaker D:He was willing to die to simply glorify his Father in heaven.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:So we need to, we need to remember that when we're studying this.
Speaker D:And I think that's such an important aspect.
Speaker A:Something you said right there just sparked something in my mind about the, you know, we've been talking about the third temple, but think about the first temple.
Speaker A:You know, David wanted to build God a temple.
Speaker A:God said no, but he allows Solomon to build it.
Speaker A:You know, and then that one naturally got destroyed.
Speaker A:And then over the course of time it just laid in ruins until God said, okay, now rebuild it.
Speaker A:There's your second temple.
Speaker A:And Jesus said, you see this?
Speaker A:Think that's fascinating.
Speaker A:Wait till it's tore down again.
Speaker A:And they're like, never allow that to happen.
Speaker A:You know, down it went.
Speaker A:And they said, well, let's build the third one.
Speaker A:And that's where you said, God, this time, God said, no, you're not going to build it.
Speaker D:Nope, not time yet.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, you know, at first, you know, Tower Babel.
Speaker D:Yeah, back to the Tower of Babel.
Speaker D:It's exactly the same thing.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:And when God said, yes, you can build it, everything went along.
Speaker A:I mean, he had, you know, look at Moses in the Tabernacle.
Speaker A:You know, these guys are dwelling out in the desert.
Speaker A:There's not many resources in the desert.
Speaker A:I don't care where you live at.
Speaker A:But he put, you know, gave godly wisdom to all these people.
Speaker A:They could sew gold threads into, you know, make.
Speaker A:I mean, he said, build this and make it happen.
Speaker A:And they did it.
Speaker A:And when people tried to come against it, you know, sometimes the ground would open up and swallow them up whole because he wanted it done.
Speaker D:But.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker A:So, I mean, yeah, I mean, everything you're saying just goes.
Speaker A:When God says yes, it's yes.
Speaker A:And when God says no, it's no, you can try and force your way and it's not gonna happen.
Speaker C:You know, and, hey, man.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's, that's, that's good stuff there.
Speaker A:And so how does the Fourth Age of the Church tie into what we're looking at now in the end times?
Speaker A:Or does it.
Speaker D: ow, because it won't be until: Speaker D: And then, of course, in: Speaker D: And then in: Speaker D:Now, they still haven't rebuilt the temple, but now it's a lot closer.
Speaker D:And you know that because of those events, those won't happen until the seventh age of the Church and in the Fourth age of the Church, it's put a stop to.
Speaker D:So I think that's very significant.
Speaker D: t this time, accommodating in: Speaker D:And some of this is done over this fact.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:And this would, this would go back and forth for a while, is that it's all about clergy marrying whether they could be married or not.
Speaker D:That becomes a big deal.
Speaker D:And there's other things as well.
Speaker D:And there's lots of little schisms and back and forths.
Speaker D:But here's what's going to happen also during this time.
Speaker D:Eventually we're going to have the Crusades.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:And those again, them trying to take Jerusalem, take the Holy Land again, trying to force their way in against God's timing.
Speaker D:It doesn't turn out well in the end.
Speaker E:No.
Speaker D:It turns into something that's ugly.
Speaker D:And a lot of people think it's a black mark on Christ.
Speaker D:I'm like, no, it's a black marker on the church, on the Western Roman Church.
Speaker D:It's not a black mark on Christ.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:They weren't successful, for one thing.
Speaker E:Yep.
Speaker D:Ultimately they will not be successful and it will increase persecution of Christians as a result.
Speaker D:In no way, shape or form does the Crusades do anything to put a black mark on Christ.
Speaker D:But it does on the church itself.
Speaker F:Hey, folks, Pastor Bob here.
Speaker A:We're all out of time for today's.
Speaker F:Portion of this great interview with Scott Wright.
Speaker F:As we've been discussing the fourth age of the church.
Speaker F:Now, this is probably the most significant church age out of all of the church ages out of all seven, Simply because of this influence that the church gains and that was due to the spread of basically the Roman Church or the Catholic Church and the influence that it had on this period of time.
Speaker F:Scott goes into detail on this and this is just so interesting to me.
Speaker F:I mean, when you take the influence of being the only ones that can interpret scripture, put it like that, and that the masses are not allowed to read the Bible or interpret themselves, this is astounding to me.
Speaker F:It really is.
Speaker A:And it makes complete sense that that's.
Speaker F:Why it's called the Dark Ages.
Speaker F:Amen.
Speaker F:Glory to God.
Speaker F:But folks, this is just part one of what turned out to be a great three part interview with Scott as we go into detail on this fourth church age.
Speaker F:So you do not want to miss the upcoming episodes.
Speaker A:Drop down the show notes, click the links right there.
Speaker A:Stay in tune, get in touch with.
Speaker F:Scott, ask your questions, order his book.
Speaker A:But be sure to come back for.
Speaker F:The next episode as we continue this discussion on the fourth church age with Scott Wright.
Speaker A:Till then, it's Pastor Bob.
Speaker F:Romania be blessed in all that you do.
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Speaker B:that web address is again is www.podcastersforchrist.Com.
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