Episode 20
Navigating the Church Ages: Insights from TS Wright
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The primary focus of this podcast episode is to explore the transition from the first to the second church age, as articulated by our esteemed guest, TS Wright. We delve into the historical significance of this period, highlighting the pivotal changes that occurred as the Jewish influence waned and the Roman Empire intensified its efforts to suppress Christianity. Throughout our discourse, we examine the processes that underlie the God Centered Concept series, which seeks to deepen personal connections with God while nurturing a movement within the church. Moreover, we reflect on the ongoing relevance of the Book of Revelation and its implications for contemporary Christian practices. Join us as we navigate these profound themes, aiming to illuminate the path for individuals and congregations alike in their spiritual journeys.
In the ensuing dialogue, the hosts welcome back TS Wright, a prominent figure within the realm of Christian discipleship and author of the God Centered Concept series. Wright delineates the essence of his work, which aims to cultivate a deeper connection between individuals and God by elucidating the processes outlined within the Scriptures. His endeavor seeks to transition churches from mere institutions into vibrant movements, thereby reinvigorating the collective mission of the Church. The episode pivots to an exploration of the church ages as described in the Book of Revelation, with Wright offering insights into the evolution of the early church and its response to external pressures, particularly from Jewish and Roman influences. This historical examination serves not only as a reflection on the past but also as a guide for contemporary believers navigating the complexities of faith in a modern context.
Transcript
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Speaker B:Welcome to the Kingdom Crossroads Podcast with Pastor Bob Thibodeau.
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Speaker A:Hello everyone everywhere.
Speaker A:Pastor Robert Thibodeau here.
Speaker A:Welcome to the Revelation Warning Podcast.
Speaker A:We're so blessed that you're joining us today.
Speaker A:Scott Wright, or T.S.
Speaker A:wright as he's known by, is the author and presenter of the God Centered Concept series.
Speaker A:This series is focused on connecting to God through discipleship and he does this by helping us understand the processes that God's Word readily gives us in order to draw closer to him.
Speaker A:He's published a journal called God Centered Concept Journal Making God's Word My Ways now has a goal of launching this series on a large scale, reaching churches and organizations with this curriculum that will change their churches from simple institutions into a movement.
Speaker A:He's also a podcaster, has a truly great podcast called the God Centered Concept as well.
Speaker A:Now you really need to listen and subscribe to this podcast because it is amazing.
Speaker A:But he's also a huge student of the end time scenarios dealing with the Book of Revelation, the end days, the seven ages of the church and he's been on our podcast before.
Speaker A:I've asked to come back on the program today as we're continuing a series of interviews discussing the church ages.
Speaker A:Last time we shared about the first church age and if you missed that interview, go back to the archives on the Revelation Warning podcast.
Speaker A:Listen to episode number 29 now.
Speaker A:Today we're going to go back to the Book of Revelation chapter 2 as Scott will be Sharing about the end of the first church age and the beginning of the second.
Speaker A:Help me welcome back to the program.
Speaker A:Thomas Scott Wright or T.S.
Speaker A:right, Scott, it's a blessing to have you back on the program today.
Speaker C:Hey, it's great to be here and looking forward to our discussion today.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker C:Get to start knocking down some of the more details of the, of the ages of the church.
Speaker C:So I'm definitely looking forward to this.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker A:I say you've been on our podcast before, but for the listening on us who may have not heard your interview earlier, tell us in your own words, who is T.S.
Speaker A:wright?
Speaker C:Well, T.S.
Speaker C:wright is obviously my author name and I've, I've written some books.
Speaker C:We call them the GCC series, God Centered Concept.
Speaker C:Also I have a podcast, and with that podcast, we break down God's processes and how to connect to His Word and to him through those processes.
Speaker C:So, you know, God has layered processes out in the Word of God.
Speaker C:He's done that in the Bible for us to follow.
Speaker C:And if we follow them, it helps us to deepen our relationship and our connection, but it also sets the right attitude and mindset inside of us so that we do not lose him in life.
Speaker C:Because that can happen so easy, I think, for so many people nowadays.
Speaker C:It's so easy to let all the things that go on in life and all the busyness and, and things that we get caught up in, whether it's careers, even family, and, you know, it can be anything, then we lose that.
Speaker C:So these processes help us not only to connect to him deeper, but to stay connected with him.
Speaker C:As Paul says in Galatians, we don't, we don't only walk in the Spirit, but we got to keep in step with the Spirit.
Speaker C:And this is designed to help people do that.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker A:Now, first of all, let's catch up on your God Centered concept series.
Speaker A:Explain what it is you're trying to do with this series.
Speaker C:Well, it's really threefold.
Speaker C:Number one, it's teaching people the processes of the Word of God to help them with that deep connection and setting the right mindset and attitude and, and so there's discipleship built into that from a personal level of that connection.
Speaker C:Second, it's to build your ability to share your faith, not only the Gospel itself, but also how to disciple people so they can go do the same.
Speaker C:And then the third is really in kind of the, the macro part of this is to help awaken the church to do what it's called to do.
Speaker C:And that is this is a Movement, not an institution.
Speaker C:So we have to, you know, we, we need to distinguish between those two.
Speaker C:And the series is designed to get the church out of its institutionalization and into that movement phase that it needs to be in.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker A:As I mentioned last time, we covered the first church age without covering too much of what we already talked about.
Speaker A:Just catch us up with that, with a synopsis of the first church age for those who may not have heard the prior interview.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:The first church age was really about the beginning and our early church fathers, I guess is a way, if you want to say it, the disciples that were connected to Jesus and then the followers of those disciples and how that was established.
Speaker C:But the main premise of what would switch that age is that the, the Jewish influence over trying to stop the spread of Christianity was removed.
Speaker C:And that is the trigger.
Speaker C:And so when, and it's, and it becomes about the Gentiles.
Speaker C:So when Paul, or excuse me, when Peter has the Acts 10 vision and so you guys can read Acts 10 to understand how that, how that happened, that is the start of the age of the Gentiles.
Speaker C:And that is the start of the age of the first.
Speaker C:That is the start of the first stage of the church.
Speaker C:When this happens, the clock starts ticking.
Speaker C:And the first stage of the church, a big significant part of that is how the Jewish factions that were in control and in power at that time, it's really about a process of them being removed over a hundred year period.
Speaker C:And the first stage of the church lasts right at about 100 years.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker C:And the final removal is in, is with the put down of the last Jewish revolt around 135 to 136 AD by the Emperor Hadrian.
Speaker C:And he dies in 138.
Speaker C:That ends the first stage of the church.
Speaker A:Okay, so then we get into the second church age.
Speaker A:What was the purpose of the second church agent?
Speaker A:And let's go into that.
Speaker C:So now that that Jewish influence has been removed of, from stopping the spread of Christianity and stopping the spread of the Gospel, now we have the Roman Empire that's trying to do the same thing.
Speaker C:And the Roman Empire had already been doing that some, but they had other focuses as well, now that it becomes more of a primary focus to stop the spread of Christianity.
Speaker C:But also during this time is the development of the church and its philosophies and theologies, including what writings need to be considered sacred, which we will eventually call the New Testament.
Speaker C:So there's a lot of these.
Speaker C:It's really a time of Upheaval, it's a, it's a roller coaster ride is the best way for me to equate it to today's life.
Speaker C:And it's.
Speaker C:The Church is on this crazy roller coaster.
Speaker C:There's persecution by the Roman Empire, there is even persecution amongst Christians to Christians because of different theological points of view.
Speaker C:And they take a very aggressive stand against things that they think.
Speaker C:They think is heresy.
Speaker C:So that goes on a lot.
Speaker C:And there's just a lot of upheaval with churches trying to decide what is sacred, what needs to be followed and what does not.
Speaker C:You know, the, the evolution of the New Testament is that it's an evolution.
Speaker C:It does not all happen at one council.
Speaker C:It takes time for this to be sorted out through, through the different popes and bishops and all the people that would have been in place in that hierarchy and that structure.
Speaker C:So that is also a part of this.
Speaker C:We have one of the first accounts of, of a follower of Jesus being persecuted, Perpetua and her slave's felicity.
Speaker C:And so that's a written account of her and her martyrdom.
Speaker C:So that happens.
Speaker C:So we get, we get guys like Origin of Alexandria.
Speaker C:We have, we have different aspects, okay, that in different.
Speaker C:In different things that come out during this time.
Speaker C:I always think one of the most interesting ones, one of the most interesting one is the Edict of Milan.
Speaker C:So the Edict of Milan is going to happen around 317.
Speaker C:All right, so there's a little bit of argument on some of these dates, but that one, that one's pretty solid because Roman, the Romans kept pretty good records of that stuff.
Speaker C:And the Emperor Constantine, of course, we know about the vision and he sees and then he wins the battle and then the Edict of Milan.
Speaker C:And that starts the process of the Roman Empire starting to embrace Christianity.
Speaker C:A lot of people think that that actually was the trigger that stopped the second age of the Church and, and entered the third age Church.
Speaker C:But that's not true because persecution still went on.
Speaker C:It just started to slow down.
Speaker C: ike what's going to happen in: Speaker C:The 95 thesis does not end, okay, the fourth age of the Church.
Speaker C:What it is, it's kind of one of those major signs.
Speaker C:Just like the Edict of Milan is in 317 of a switching that's coming.
Speaker C:And it takes another 15 to 20 years for that.
Speaker C:About 20 years for that to happen is what in.
Speaker C:In both of those cases.
Speaker C:So what happens in 3:17 is we get the Edict of Milan and then Christianity starts to slowly be accepted.
Speaker C:But the vent is the Roman Emperor himself.
Speaker C:Constantine in 337 is baptized right before he dies.
Speaker C:He sees the need to be baptized, to establish his faith and to retain and attain to salvation.
Speaker C:And he does that right before he dies.
Speaker C:That is the trigger event that switches the second age of the Church to the third age of the Church.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker A:So explain the Edict of Milan.
Speaker C:Well, and I'm, I don't want to get too deep into it and I'll write, when I do the books, I'll write a little bit more about that.
Speaker C:But the Edict of Milan is basically this.
Speaker C:It was an edict put out that started, that really was to start accepting Christianity and that Christianity would be a religion of the Roman Empire.
Speaker C:And so there's a lot of, and there's a lot of different scholars that say different things about it.
Speaker C:But it is obviously a major event because now it stop, it starts that process of stopping the persecution of Christians.
Speaker C:And now the Church can, oh, can operate in a more open way.
Speaker C:But I, but I'm going to say this.
Speaker C:There is still persecution that goes on after this.
Speaker C:And it's some of us between Christians, it's still Romans to Christians.
Speaker C:It doesn't totally stop in the emperors that even come after Constantine.
Speaker C:It's, it's a roller coaster with whether they persecute Christians and it's certain types of Christians.
Speaker C:Some things they think is heresy because there's still this built in thinking that there is something godly about the Emperor.
Speaker C:And see that's, that's still part of what is embedded in this and why that the, the age of the Church, that second age of church continues even after the edict because Constantine still hasn't totally embraced every piece of this he does.
Speaker C:He obviously now accepts Christianity as being a religion that needs to be accepted in the Roman Empire.
Speaker C:And that vision obviously awoken him to Christianity.
Speaker C:But until he receives baptism in 337 is when he goes all in that this is exactly the way we should be following, okay?
Speaker C:That Christianity is the way and that Christ is the way.
Speaker C:So that becomes the event.
Speaker C:You can go and look at the, the, you can read about the history of the Church and see all the popes and archbishops.
Speaker C:One of the main guys that's in this period, time period is a guy by.
Speaker C:Excuse me, a guy by the name of.
Speaker C:I'll let you edit this part out.
Speaker C:Athanasius.
Speaker C:Sorry.
Speaker C:So my notes, my computer was being all weird there, so.
Speaker C:All right, here we go.
Speaker C:A guy by the name of Athanasius.
Speaker C:That is living in this time period, becomes the Archbishop of Alexandria.
Speaker C:His.
Speaker C:His presence is huge.
Speaker C:He's right there at the end of the second age of the Church, and he's there at the beginning of the Third age of the Church.
Speaker C:And Athanasius becomes that guy that is the connector between the old followings of Christianity, transitioning that into the modern era.
Speaker C:A lot of our understandings of Christianity today and a lot of our theological points of view, including in his festival letter and in the 360s that he will write is what sets the tone for a certain 27 writings to be considered sacred that we now call the New Testament.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker C:That eventually gets adopted in.
Speaker C:In 397, in the third age of the church.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker C:But the second age of the Church, this is significant.
Speaker C:And because now we have a written account.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker C:That we follow.
Speaker C:And only these writings can be read in a church session.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker C:These other books, the second age of.
Speaker A:The Church, though, it didn't just affect Israel then, it affected all the known world at that time.
Speaker D:Right?
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:So what happens is, of course, Israel is disintegrated and their last revolt is destroyed or put down, I should say, in 136.
Speaker C:Then Hadrian dies and then the next emperor that comes in antennas Antonot.
Speaker C:And I'm not always great with these names, so just forgive me, but Antonias Pius becomes emperor.
Speaker C:And so.
Speaker C:And I. I've had to brush up on a lot of my church history.
Speaker C:I didn't.
Speaker C:I had studied this hard when I was younger.
Speaker C:Well, that's been a few years ago.
Speaker C:So when I was going through this, I saw that switch over.
Speaker C:And it also.
Speaker C:There was a switch over how Christians were being treated by the Roman Empire in that there was more of a focus put on getting Christianity out of society.
Speaker C:Because now that they had dealt with the Jewish issue, now they wanted to deal more with the Christian issue.
Speaker C:They had been dealing with it and there had been some kind of.
Speaker C:There had been some periods of persecution, but they ramp it up to another level because now they don't have to focus on the Jewish problem anymore.
Speaker D:Right, Right.
Speaker A:Well, they're persecuting the Christians, though.
Speaker A:That caused them to flee to other parts of the world.
Speaker A:And it did the good news with them.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:And it started spreading Christianity.
Speaker C:And what's funny is Christianity not only spreads, but in the Roman Empire, the more they persecute, the more it becomes popular amongst normal people.
Speaker C:You know, some of the greatest movements in the Church have been during periods of persecution.
Speaker C:So that's something to always consider that the movement of the church has been the movement of Christianity spreading and becoming really alive and well in an area a lot of times has been done under intense persecution.
Speaker C:Yeah, so it's, yeah, I think people in a general sense, and this is just my psychology coming out in me, people in a sense like to rebel.
Speaker C:Well in, in a lot of ways sometimes the movement of the church has been a rebellious movement against civil authority.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:But yet those rebellious movements are done in the righteousness of the Holy Spirit because they are standing up against an authority that is trying to stamp out the gospel.
Speaker C:Well, anytime, and we know this as Christians, anytime the gospel is being tried is they're trying to put the gospel out and trying to push it out of an air of a society.
Speaker C:We know that a lot of times there's just intense growth, but there's also persecution that comes with that and people rebel against civil authority.
Speaker D:They do.
Speaker C:So and you'll see this, you know, and you can see this now when Christianity has been the power controlling things.
Speaker C:We've seen rebellions against Christianity during those time periods.
Speaker C:We'll see a lot of that in the fourth age of the church.
Speaker C:There'll be a lot of that kind of that big roller coaster because that fourth age of the church is going to last about a thousand years.
Speaker C: to right up to about: Speaker C:So and I'll, when we get to the fourth age of the church, I'll get more in depth of that.
Speaker C:But one thing to understand is that God is extremely organized in a timeline.
Speaker C:And what I'm really layering out here, layering and giving these layers in these ages of the church.
Speaker C:And what I'm presenting is that how organized God is, he had an organized format to follow and he had his timeline.
Speaker C:And all I'm doing is reporting how that unfolded as time went on.
Speaker C:So I'm not really being a futuristic, I'm being an historian here.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker A:You know, you mentioned the collection of writings that became known as the New Testament was started about this time in the second church age.
Speaker A:Why did they settle on these writings that we have and not include some of the more popular books that we're aware of that were not included?
Speaker A:You know, like I know every year I purchase a new version of a Bible just so I have it for a resource.
Speaker A:And, and I have one of the, the Catholic Bibles.
Speaker A:I Guess he is the generic name for it.
Speaker A:But it's got books in there that, you know, date back to that period of time as well, that, you know, some of the information in there.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it's not just that Bible, but other resources I've seen as well, that, you know, they contain great information, great concepts and insights into the teachings of Jesus.
Speaker A:Why weren't they selected to be in the Bible?
Speaker C:Well, to do that, we have to go back to the canonization of Scripture.
Speaker C:And that's a whole nother topic that we could spend hours, we could have 10 podcasts on the canonization of Scripture, because there was a lot of detail that went into that.
Speaker C:But in short, things like the Epistles of Barnabas and the writings of Clement, Polycarp, think thank my mother and dad not for naming me Polycarp, but Ignatius.
Speaker C:You know, these guys were followers.
Speaker C:Those guys were followers of the original disciples, and they had lots of writings, and they were continually writing these churches.
Speaker C:And what I think people need to understand, and I think to really grasp this, is that those writings had a lot of value and it contained a lot of the same things that we have in the New Testament.
Speaker C:But there would either be, number one, something in the writing, okay, that did not line up with the other writings and what they considered sacred, or it didn't add anything that was necessary.
Speaker C:What we have to understand is that the word of God, that we.
Speaker C:What we consider the Bible, the word of God, is a series of writings written to specific people at specific times.
Speaker C: arted doing this in the early: Speaker C:Who were these letters being written to?
Speaker C:Because most of them are letters that are in the New Testament.
Speaker C:And then what is that particular culture?
Speaker C:What was that culture like?
Speaker C:And then to start drawing out those comparisons of those cultures, Tars, the Corinthian and the Ephesian culture, the Ephesus and Corinth, those cultures would have been very much a kind of an ancient culture, but would have been somewhat like what our culture is, because they were infused with so many other different cultures, like it is in the United States.
Speaker C:We're a melting pot.
Speaker C:Those were melting pots.
Speaker C:They just were a little more ancient in their technology, but they were very similar.
Speaker C:Corinth in Ephesus was very similar to Western society.
Speaker C:It really.
Speaker C:It was.
Speaker C:It just not quite as technologically or socially advanced, but they had a lot of the same things, a lot of the same issues, a lot of the same social components that we see today.
Speaker C:And so those letters that Paul writes, I mean, we should pay attention to them because there's a lot of, there, there's a, you know, there's a lot of comparisons that you can draw that are.
Speaker C:And a lot of similarities between the cultures.
Speaker C:So a lot of the same issues that are going on that were going on there are going on today.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so especially in the church.
Speaker C:And then I would also point out that we need to be paying attention to Revelation chapter 3, verses 14 through 22, because there is a ton of similar.
Speaker C:There's a ton of information embedded in that, which you will learn on my podcast because I talk about the process that Jesus layers out in that, but it also gives us information and understanding of what we're really dealing with spiritually right now.
Speaker C:He is speaking to that age of the church, which is this age of the church now.
Speaker C:That is Jesus speaking directly to us.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker D:Amen.
Speaker A:Hey, folks, Pastor Bob here.
Speaker A:We're all out of time for today's portion of this great interview with Scott Wright.
Speaker A:Folks, this is so interesting to me.
Speaker A:I've been a student of the book of the revelation for 25 years.
Speaker A:Easy, Scott.
Speaker A:His wisdom on this and his knowledge, his understanding of it is definitely God given.
Speaker A:And he has done an immense amount of study hours in this.
Speaker A:The information he's given us right now on the church ages is priceless.
Speaker A:It really is.
Speaker A:You need to go back and just stay caught up with this series that he's teaching on the churches.
Speaker A:The ages of the churches, or what we call the church ages today was just part one of the end of the first church age.
Speaker A:And in the very next episode, we'll conclude the study on the end of the first church age and get going into the second church age.
Speaker A:I mean, set aside whatever appointments, whatever you need to do in order to make sure you stay caught up on this study series, because it is priceless.
Speaker A:Drop down the show notes, get in touch with him, order his book, God Centered Concept Journal, but be sure you come back for the very next episode.
Speaker C:Alright?
Speaker A:Till then, this is Pastor Bob Romy.
Speaker A:Be blessed in all that you do.
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Speaker B:Please subscribe to our podcast so you can be notified when another episode is published.
Speaker B: interviews and: Speaker B:Please visit our website@www.podcastersforchrist.com.
Speaker B:that web address again is www.podcastersforchrist.Com.
Speaker B:for more information, until next time, Be blessed in all that you do.
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