Episode 21
Navigating the Church Ages: Insights from TS Wright Part 2
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In a meticulous examination of the historical context of Christianity, the discourse traverses the complexities of the early church ages, articulating a narrative that is both enlightening and transformative. The episode delves into the ramifications of the Roman Empire's treatment of Christians following the fall of Jerusalem, illustrating the evolution of the church amidst escalating persecution. TS Wright's insights reveal how these tribulations fostered a spirit of rebellion and resilience among believers, leading to significant growth in the faith. Furthermore, the podcast highlights the strategic organization of God’s timeline, as articulated through historical events that directly influenced the church's trajectory. This exploration not only provides a foundation for understanding the church's past but also invites listeners to reflect on their role in the current age of the church, thereby enriching their spiritual journey and engagement with contemporary issues.
Transcript
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Speaker B:Welcome to the Kingdom Crossroads Podcast with Pastor Bob Thibodeau.
Speaker B:Pastor Bob conducts personal interviews with Christian influencers from around the globe, helping Christian authors, recording our artists, CEOs, entrepreneurs, non profit leaders, and yes pastors and ministry leaders to get the word out about what they are doing to impact the world with the gospel.
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Speaker A:Hello everyone everywhere.
Speaker A:Pastor Robert Thibodeau here.
Speaker A:Welcome to welcome back to the Kingdom Crossroads Podcast today.
Speaker A:We're so blessed that you're joining us today is part two of a fabulous interview with our good friend Scott Wright, author of the God Center Concept Journal.
Speaker A:But he's also an avid, avid student.
Speaker A:I'd go so far as say, scholar on the end times and especially the church ages.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:I mean he's put in the hours here folks.
Speaker A:I've been studying the book of the Revelation and the end time scenarios for 25 years.
Speaker A:His view, his understanding of the church ages is just amazing.
Speaker A:He has been going through this.
Speaker A:This was part one of a series discussing the seven ages of the church.
Speaker A:What we just finished was part one of the first church age.
Speaker A:Now in today's episode we will pick it up from there and we will conclude the study on the first church age.
Speaker A:But we're also going to go into the second age of the church.
Speaker A:You just need to make sure that you stay up with this series.
Speaker A:If you missed any of part one, you got to go back and catch up.
Speaker A:I don't have the time to replay just about anything from that portion of the interview.
Speaker A:So if you want a thorough understanding of the first church age, you got to go back and listen to the prior episode.
Speaker A:Let's jump back into the interview now.
Speaker A:Was Scott right the second age of the church though it didn't just affect Israel then, it affected all the known world at that time.
Speaker A:Right, yes.
Speaker D:So what happens is, of course, Israel is disintegrated and their last revolt is destroyed or put down, I should say, in 136.
Speaker D:Then Hadrian dies and then the next emperor that comes in antennas Antonot.
Speaker D:And I'm not always great with these names, so just forgive me, but Antonias Pius becomes emperor.
Speaker D:And so.
Speaker D:And I. I've had to brush up on a lot of my church history.
Speaker D:I didn't.
Speaker D:I had studied this hard when I was young.
Speaker D:Well, that's been a few years ago.
Speaker D:So when I was going through this, I saw that switch over.
Speaker D:And it also.
Speaker D:There was a switch over how Christians were being treated by the Roman Empire.
Speaker D:And in that, there was more of a focus put on getting Christianity out of society.
Speaker D:Because now that they had dealt with the Jewish issue, now they wanted to deal more with the Christian issue.
Speaker D:They had been dealing with it and there had been some kind of.
Speaker D:There had been some periods of persecution, but they ramp it up to another level because now they don't have to focus on the Jewish problem anymore.
Speaker C:Right, right.
Speaker A:Over persecuting the Christians, though, that caused them to flee to other parts of the world and take the good news with them.
Speaker D:Right, exactly.
Speaker D:And it started spreading Christianity.
Speaker D:And what's funny is, is Christianity not only spreads, but in the Roman Empire, the more they persecute, the more it becomes popular amongst normal people.
Speaker D:You know, some of the greatest movements in the church have been during periods of persecution.
Speaker D:So that's something to always consider that the movement of the Church has been the movement of Christianity spreading and becoming really alive and well in an area a lot of times has been done under intense persecution.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:So it's.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:I think people, in a general sense, and this is just my psychology coming out in me, people in a sense, like to rebel.
Speaker D:Well, in.
Speaker D:In a lot of ways.
Speaker D:Sometimes the movement of the church has been a rebellious movement against civil authority.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:But yet those rebellious movements are done in the righteousness of the Holy Spirit, because they are standing up against an authority that is trying to stamp out the gospel.
Speaker D:Well, anytime, and we know this as Christians, anytime the gospel is being tried is they're trying to put the gospel out and trying to push it out of an air of a society.
Speaker D:We know that a lot of times there's just intense growth, but there's also persecution that comes with that.
Speaker D:And people rebel against civil authority.
Speaker C:They do.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker D:And you'll see this, you know, and you can see this now when Christianity has been the power controlling things.
Speaker D:We've seen rebellions against Christianity during those time periods.
Speaker D:We'll see a lot of that in the fourth age of the church.
Speaker D:There'll be a lot of that, kind of that big roller coaster because that fourth age of the church is going to last about a thousand years.
Speaker D: to right up to about: Speaker D:So, and I'll, when we get to the fourth age of the church, I'll get more in depth of that.
Speaker D:But one thing to understand is that God is extremely organized in a timeline.
Speaker D:And what I'm really layering out here, layering and giving these layers in these ages of the church and what I'm presenting is that how organized God is, He had an organized format to follow and he had his timeline.
Speaker D:And all I'm doing is reporting how that unfolded as time went on.
Speaker D:So I'm not really being a futurist, I'm being an historian here.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:You know, you mentioned the collection of writings that became known as the New Testament was started about this time in the second church age.
Speaker A:Why did they settle on these writings that we have and not include some of the more popular books that we're aware of that were not included?
Speaker A:You know, like, I know every year I purchase a new version of a Bible just so I have it for a resource.
Speaker A:And, and I have one of the, the Catholic Bibles, I guess is the generic name for it, but it's got books in there that, you know, date back to that period of time as well that, you know, some of the information in there and, and it's not just that Bible, but other resources I've seen as well that, you know, they contain great information, great concepts and insights into the teachings of Jesus.
Speaker A:Why weren't they selected to be in the Bible?
Speaker D:Well, to do that we have to go back to the canonization of Scripture.
Speaker D:And that's a whole nother topic that we could spend hours, we could have 10 podcasts on the section of Scripture because there, there was a lot of detail that went into that.
Speaker D:But in short, things like the Epistles of Barnabas and the writings of Clement Polycarp.
Speaker D:Think thank my mother and dad not for naming me Polycarp, but Ignatius.
Speaker D:You know, these guys were followers.
Speaker D:Those guys were followers of the original disciples and they had lots of writings and they were continually writing These churches.
Speaker D:And what I think people need to understand, and I think to really grasp this, is that those writings had a lot of value, and it contained a lot of the same things that we have in the New Testament.
Speaker D:But there would either be, number one, something in the writing, okay, that did not line up with the other writings and what they considered sacred, or it didn't add anything that was necessary.
Speaker D:What we have to understand is that the word of God, that we.
Speaker D:What we consider the Bible, the word of God, is a series of writings written to specific people at specific times.
Speaker D:And so one of the things that I started doing that really.
Speaker D: arted doing this in the early: Speaker D:Who were these letters being written to?
Speaker D:Because most of them are letters that are in the New Testament.
Speaker D:And then what is that particular culture?
Speaker D:What was that culture like?
Speaker D:And then to start drawing out those comparisons of those cultures, Tars, the Corinthian and the Ephesian culture, the Ephesus and Corinth, those cultures would have been very much a kind of an ancient culture, but would have been somewhat like what our culture is, because they were infused with so many other different cultures, like it is in the United States.
Speaker D:We're a melting pot.
Speaker D:Those were melting pots.
Speaker D:They just were a little more ancient in their technology, but they were very similar.
Speaker D:Corinth and Ephesus was very similar to Western society.
Speaker D:It really was.
Speaker D:It just not quite as technologically or socially advanced, but they had a lot of the same things, a lot of the same issues, a lot of the same social components that we see today.
Speaker D:And so those letters that Paul writes, I mean, we should pay attention to them because there's a lot of.
Speaker C:There.
Speaker D:There's a.
Speaker D:You know, there's a lot of comparisons that you can draw that are.
Speaker D:And a lot of similarities between the cultures.
Speaker D:So a lot of the same issues that are going on that were going on there are going on today.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And so especially in the church.
Speaker D:And then I would also point out that we need to be paying attention to Revelation, chapter 3, verses 14 to, too, because there is a ton of similar.
Speaker D:There's a ton of information embedded in that, which you will learn on my podcast, because I talk about the process that Jesus layers out in that.
Speaker D:But it also gives us information and understanding of what we're really dealing with spiritually right now.
Speaker D:He is speaking to that age of the church, which is this age of the church now that is Jesus speaking directly to us.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:Scott, this has been so fascinating.
Speaker A:Share with us.
Speaker A:Someone can reach out to you, get more information on this.
Speaker D:Well, first of all, they can obviously go to my podcast and it's called the God Centered Concept.
Speaker D:And you can find that pretty much on every podcast platform, whether it's Spotify or Apple Podcast and some of the other, the other ones that aren't as that are a little smaller.
Speaker D:I also have my website that also works and we can obviously post that link as you have that and then you can also email me, which I have my email on my website and on the podcast.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker D:Okay, you know, feel free to.
Speaker D: It's GCC God centered concept: Speaker D:And so one thing I do want to add, Bob, that I think is very important is that this timeline that we're on right now, this time period, not only this time period, but this timeline that the church has been on is very organized.
Speaker D:And as, as we're going to see through this particular series that where you and I are discussing, we're going to see breakdowns.
Speaker D:So if we start from when Peter gets that vision, that's going to start somewhere between about 36 in 39 AD is, is what most scholars think, most biblical scholars think it was about that time period when he received that vision.
Speaker D:I'm not saying there's not some arguments of it being a certain year or whatever, but it's about that time period.
Speaker D:Most likely 136 to 138 AD would have been the end of the first stage of the church with the Jewish revolt, last one being put down by the emperor Hadrian.
Speaker D:And then it would have switched to the second age of the church right about that time when the new emperor takes, takes the throne in 138.
Speaker D:This particular age of the church will end right around 337, 338 when Constantine baptized and dies.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker D:This age of the church is going to go through a lot of our people a lot in the third age church.
Speaker D:It's called this third age of the church which we're going to discuss the next time is called the political church, the second edge of the church.
Speaker D:The church is smarter that we're discussing right now.
Speaker D:This is the persecuted church.
Speaker D:It really is.
Speaker D:And it's persecuted by the Roman Empire.
Speaker D:So and that, and, and basically that evolution of that 200 year mark from about 138 to about 337 to 338 that 200 year period is an evolution of Christianity not only spreading to other areas because of the persecution and spreading through the Roman Empire, but it also shows how Christianity starts become a world power.
Speaker D:And we will see that play out and culminate in538.
Speaker D:I know we're starting to see these dates.
Speaker D:They're like boy, There's a lot of 37s and 38s what's going on here.
Speaker D:That's what I started picking up when I started seeing different events.
Speaker D:And I was reading through all this church history that I will get into as we go along in future episodes.
Speaker D:And I'll, I'll show you a complete timeline.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:And it'll be in which also leads me to this is that we're actually.
Speaker D:I'm going to write a book on this.
Speaker D:Starting here in July.
Speaker D:I'm going to write a book on this timeline.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:Share a little bit about that with us.
Speaker D:Well, obviously you've listened to these first two episodes and I'm.
Speaker D:You got to realize I'm trying to squeeze and you and I have talked about this, a lot of information into this 20 minute time frame that you and I have this 20, 30 minute time frame.
Speaker D:But what that book's going to do is it's going to layer out each age of the church and what that looks like.
Speaker D:I'm going to layer out even about when it should end.
Speaker D:The seventh age of the church will end.
Speaker D:Understand this.
Speaker D:What my book is not going to be about is what's going to happen after that.
Speaker D:I'm not going to say that there's going to be.
Speaker D:You know, some people believe there's going to be a rapture that ends the age of the church.
Speaker D:I'm not going to talk about that.
Speaker D:You, you guys have plenty of resources, lots of eschatology out there to read with different points of view, different theories.
Speaker D:That is not what this book is going to be.
Speaker D:What I'm going to do for people is make it very simple.
Speaker D:I'm going to take some very complex things and simplify this timeline so that they have something simple that will help them understand the history of this and how each age of the church broke down, how the church developed and then how eventually it will fade and what.
Speaker D:And what went on in each age and kind of how to highlight that there, there's some things out there.
Speaker D:I personally don't think there's been enough put into understanding these seven ages of the church.
Speaker D:I really don't.
Speaker D:There's Been a.
Speaker D:There's been.
Speaker D:There's Pete.
Speaker D:There's some scholars that have talked about it, and I've seen some different things, but I think there's just assumptions that were made along the way to get to be able to talk about future events instead of saying, wait a minute, asking more.
Speaker D:Really what you got to do when you do this is you've got to ask lots of questions.
Speaker D:And that's really what the Holy Spirit impressed upon me.
Speaker D:He started putting those questions in my heart and I just started looking at that in different ways.
Speaker D:I was like, okay, that makes more sense.
Speaker D:Because some things just didn't make sense to me.
Speaker D:And being a guy that teaches history, that has looked at history, that studies just some things didn't make sense to me.
Speaker A:Okay, and when do you anticipate this book being released?
Speaker D:I am hoping by the end of this year.
Speaker D:My goal is to have it.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker D:Released by the end of this year.
Speaker D:So right now we obviously, we've got it.
Speaker D:I've got to get it written, which I've got some things already written out anyway.
Speaker D:It's.
Speaker D:It's kind of like when you go do your research and you got all your note cards and they're just scattered everywhere now we got to start bringing some of that in.
Speaker D:Okay, what do we got to add to try do all this?
Speaker D:And then obviously got to get it edited.
Speaker D:And then I've got to raise funds and get.
Speaker D:Go to a publisher and see who will.
Speaker D:Who wants to take this project on.
Speaker D:And then hopefully that will lead to me obviously eventually publishing the other books and getting those out as well.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:What will we talking about next time?
Speaker D:Well, we're going to dive.
Speaker D:We're going to dive a little deeper into the third age of the Church.
Speaker D:We.
Speaker D:We touched on it and I touched on a few of the events, but there's going to be a little bit more into that and then we'll start brushing up against that fourth edge of the church, what some people call the tyrannical Church, because the church becomes the dominant power when the Byzantine Empire takes Rome in 538.
Speaker D:Yeah, that's really about the power of the Holy Roman Church and its ability to in not only influence the world, but to dominate it's that part of the world and spread that across the globe.
Speaker D:Well, not the entire globe, but much of Europe and Asia and the Middle east and, you know, the Crusades will be involved in all that.
Speaker D:I mean, so we're gonna.
Speaker D:We're gonna start knocking on those doors.
Speaker C:Amen Amen.
Speaker A:And your book, God Centered Concept Journal, Making God's Word My Ways, it's already published.
Speaker A:It's on Amazon.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker D:Exactly.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And it's, it's just a good journal for you to follow my, my podcast with, but you can also just use it as your personal journal.
Speaker D:I've got different sizes available, so, you know, depending on if you like a bigger one like me, or you might like a smaller one that's more.
Speaker D:A little bit just handheld that you can have in, you know, wherever.
Speaker D:So some people like them smaller, something like bigger.
Speaker D:So there are some different options available on there.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:And before we close again, share again about your podcast.
Speaker D:So the God Centered concept.
Speaker D:Right now I've already.
Speaker D:We've got a bonus episode.
Speaker D:We have 12 episodes already released.
Speaker D:We're getting ready.
Speaker D:I'm getting ready to do the 13th on this weekend as well as I may go ahead and do the 14th one as well and get them both out.
Speaker D:Had a little gap of time in there because I was re.
Speaker D:I had to redo some technology, so I had a little gap of releasing between the 11th and 12th episode for that reason.
Speaker D:But we got that all figured out, bought some new equipment.
Speaker D:So we've kind of.
Speaker D:We've kind of ramped things up, actually, in that time period.
Speaker D:And now what we're doing is we're just digging deeper into processes.
Speaker D:And so right now, what these episodes that I'm putting out right now are about is how God has the right to train us and test us, but that we have to submit to that so he can grow us.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:I'll put links to all this down the show notes below.
Speaker A:Folks, there is no doubt we're living in what Jesus and historical Christian scholars have called the end times.
Speaker A:We're working our way through each of the church ages in order to give you a more thorough understanding of how all this fits into what we're witnessing right now all around us.
Speaker A:We should not be in a state of fear and trepidation.
Speaker A:No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker A:We need to be excited.
Speaker A:We need to be thanking God for the day and time in which we live.
Speaker A:I mean, the Bible even says Jesus told us, your eyes will see things that others wanted to see but couldn't.
Speaker A:And we're experiencing it right now.
Speaker A:These are the days Jesus talked about looking forward, not saying fear and trepidation.
Speaker A:He said, looking forward to these days.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:I mean, in each of the church ages, Scott's going to be sharing with us those people who lived in there were born in that era for a reason.
Speaker A:In that era.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Which means God laid out the entire history of mankind and he had to know you would be born now for a reason.
Speaker A:What is that reason?
Speaker A:To be part of ushering in the return of King Jesus.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker A:So I want to leave you with this thought and as you witness all these things happening around us, don't be filled with fear, but faith.
Speaker A:And look up because the Bible says your redemption is drawing near.
Speaker A:Scott, I appreciate you coming back on the program today and I look back forward to the next one.
Speaker A:Brother.
Speaker D:Thank you, Bob and I. I look forward to speaking about the third age of the church here.
Speaker D:So we'll have to get this booked and done quickly.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:Praise God, folks.
Speaker A:That's all the time we have for today for Scott Wright and myself, Pastor Bob, Ronnie, to be blessed in all that you do.
Speaker B:Thank you for listening to today's episode of the Kingdom Crossroads podcast.
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